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Post by rikiiboy on Aug 22, 2024 9:15:07 GMT
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Post by hild1066 on Aug 22, 2024 9:38:31 GMT
I don't think anyone is feeling great at the moment Maris. The country is in a mess.
However, I think suggesting that the rioters rioted because they come from areas of deprivation does a massive disservice to the millions of people living and working in these areas who have never committed any crime or rioted anywhere. Ignorance may be a better reason for some of them, because I don't think they all totally understood what they were doing there. One young man pleaded guilty to violent disorder this week and told the judge that he was pleading guilty but didn't know what it meant. That is telling and I think this is the category that a lot of these people will fall into.
Poor people don't expect to be suddenly rich but they do want to be able to stay warm and have food. This was not what the riots were about though.
Free speech has always been this weird thing. We have it and we can use it, but it has always had consequences and those consequences vary through time and at different stages. Lots of people were fined or imprisoned at the beginning of WW11 for sedition. Then apart form very serious cases it was phased out because the prisons would have been full of very ordinary people complaining about food shortages. Initially strikes were going to be illegal but strikers didn't care and they decided just not to report them.
I don't think many of the Black Lives Matters protestors or the Support Palestine protestors have involved themselves with too much violence and have mostly stuck to the usual chants. Some people were arrested for shouting other things, but shouting an offensive thing is not getting you sent to prison. Punching a police dog and slapping the PC in the groin with a fence post will and it always has.
Quietly the govt is getting to grips with deportations. 50 Vietnamese were deported this week, with further flights to follow. They have started a programme of deporting foreign prisoners, with 7 going back to Jamaica a couple of weeks ago. There are about 10,000 foreign prisoners in UK prisons. That's about 3/4 prisons worth. However, it might be surprising for people to know that the majority of these are Polish. It never gets any press coverage at all does it, that about 5,000 Polish people are in our prisons. The next biggest group is Romanian, followed by Albanian. There are very few African or North African prisoners and even less from Asia. From press coverage you would imagine that it is mostly those people in the prison system. We will not deport prisoners serving life terms for the most serious crimes if the country they came from is likely to release them or execute them. In some case we have to pay the govt of the other country to take them back e.g. Jamaica - about £1,500, because they don't have the facilities and in most cases we will deport people to the Caribbean at the point they were likely to be getting parole e.g. half way through a sentence.
A programme of rounding up illegal immigrants has begun and they are expanding the capacity of holding bases and reception centres to deal with this.
Is there two tier policing, of course and there always has been. Ever since the police force was created rich people have got away with crimes poor people went to prison for. If some poor kids from Sunderland smashed up a restaurant and terrorised the staff they'd be in trouble but Cameron and his mates just paid for the repairs and new crockery! When there were no black people in the North East, the police would target estates and people from certain places, because they have always been biased. I had school friends who emigrated to work in coal mines in South Africa and Australia to get away from this consistent targeting. It's not knew.
Several men of Asian descent have been arrested and sent to prison for their roles in counter protests. Recently Just Stop Oil protestors got prison terms.
We need a very grown up discussion around immigration, around education and what we intend to teach. I strongly believe that children from ethnic groups where religious and cultural norms are at odds with ours must be taught what their rights are in this country. They must be given the knowledge to say no to marriages, acknowledge sexual identity and everything else. The number of secular Muslims is growing annually despite radical Immams and cultural norms within their societal groups. Some groups resisting the education on forced marriages have complained that this is just cultural but that is why the govt increased the age of consent to marry to 18. This affects the gypsy/Romany communities and they have protested and some have said they will go to Ireland to get married. Do it, but if you come back here married and under 18 you will be arrested. The same complaints have come from the Jewish communities who also have arranged marriages with young girls particularly affected. They have requested the right to opt out of the law under religious concerns and have been told no. Similarly when the the use of circumcision came into law it states that the person must be of an age to consent to the surgery. Muslim groups did not object, they had no problem with that being the case, the issue caused fury amongst Jewish groups many of whom now go to France to have this done. I am not aware of a Jewish father being arrested for having this done to his infant son, so two tier policing works in all ways.
There is a difference between being offended and inciting violence or carrying out violence and that difference is being shown now. For instance there have been many right wing protest marches in Sunderland over the last 10 years with very few arrests, other than for drunk and disorderly, urinating in a public space etc.
But things are tough. You might have noticed that recently a lot of working class people being interviewed on TV have teeth missing and this is so common now. There are no NHS dentists in many cities. None offering places here in Sunderland and this all adds to the lack of hope and despair in many people. There is such a lot to do. It will take much longer than 5 years.
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Post by rikiiboy on Aug 22, 2024 10:13:14 GMT
I don't think anyone is feeling great at the moment Maris. The country is in a mess. However, I think suggesting that the rioters rioted because they come from areas of deprivation does a massive disservice to the millions of people living and working in these areas who have never committed any crime or rioted anywhere. Ignorance may be a better reason for some of them, because I don't think they all totally understood what they were doing there. One young man pleaded guilty to violent disorder this week and told the judge that he was pleading guilty but didn't know what it meant. That is telling and I think this is the category that a lot of these people will fall into. Poor people don't expect to be suddenly rich but they do want to be able to stay warm and have food. This was not what the riots were about though. Free speech has always been this weird thing. We have it and we can use it, but it has always had consequences and those consequences vary through time and at different stages. Lots of people were fined or imprisoned at the beginning of WW11 for sedition. Then apart form very serious cases it was phased out because the prisons would have been full of very ordinary people complaining about food shortages. Initially strikes were going to be illegal but strikers didn't care and they decided just not to report them. I don't think many of the Black Lives Matters protestors or the Support Palestine protestors have involved themselves with too much violence and have mostly stuck to the usual chants. Some people were arrested for shouting other things, but shouting an offensive thing is not getting you sent to prison. Punching a police dog and slapping the PC in the groin with a fence post will and it always has. Quietly the govt is getting to grips with deportations. 50 Vietnamese were deported this week, with further flights to follow. They have started a programme of deporting foreign prisoners, with 7 going back to Jamaica a couple of weeks ago. There are about 10,000 foreign prisoners in UK prisons. That's about 3/4 prisons worth. However, it might be surprising for people to know that the majority of these are Polish. It never gets any press coverage at all does it, that about 5,000 Polish people are in our prisons. The next biggest group is Romanian, followed by Albanian. There are very few African or North African prisoners and even less from Asia. From press coverage you would imagine that it is mostly those people in the prison system. We will not deport prisoners serving life terms for the most serious crimes if the country they came from is likely to release them or execute them. In some case we have to pay the govt of the other country to take them back e.g. Jamaica - about £1,500, because they don't have the facilities and in most cases we will deport people to the Caribbean at the point they were likely to be getting parole e.g. half way through a sentence. A programme of rounding up illegal immigrants has begun and they are expanding the capacity of holding bases and reception centres to deal with this. Is there two tier policing, of course and there always has been. Ever since the police force was created rich people have got away with crimes poor people went to prison for. If some poor kids from Sunderland smashed up a restaurant and terrorised the staff they'd be in trouble but Cameron and his mates just paid for the repairs and new crockery! When there were no black people in the North East, the police would target estates and people from certain places, because they have always been biased. I had school friends who emigrated to work in coal mines in South Africa and Australia to get away from this consistent targeting. It's not knew. Several men of Asian descent have been arrested and sent to prison for their roles in counter protests. Recently Just Stop Oil protestors got prison terms. We need a very grown up discussion around immigration, around education and what we intend to teach. I strongly believe that children from ethnic groups where religious and cultural norms are at odds with ours must be taught what their rights are in this country. They must be given the knowledge to say no to marriages, acknowledge sexual identity and everything else. The number of secular Muslims is growing annually despite radical Immams and cultural norms within their societal groups. Some groups resisting the education on forced marriages have complained that this is just cultural but that is why the govt increased the age of consent to marry to 18. This affects the gypsy/Romany communities and they have protested and some have said they will go to Ireland to get married. Do it, but if you come back here married and under 18 you will be arrested. The same complaints have come from the Jewish communities who also have arranged marriages with young girls particularly affected. They have requested the right to opt out of the law under religious concerns and have been told no. Similarly when the the use of circumcision came into law it states that the person must be of an age to consent to the surgery. Muslim groups did not object, they had no problem with that being the case, the issue caused fury amongst Jewish groups many of whom now go to France to have this done. I am not aware of a Jewish father being arrested for having this done to his infant son, so two tier policing works in all ways. There is a difference between being offended and inciting violence or carrying out violence and that difference is being shown now. For instance there have been many right wing protest marches in Sunderland over the last 10 years with very few arrests, other than for drunk and disorderly, urinating in a public space etc. But things are tough. You might have noticed that recently a lot of working class people being interviewed on TV have teeth missing and this is so common now. There are no NHS dentists in many cities. None offering places here in Sunderland and this all adds to the lack of hope and despair in many people. There is such a lot to do. It will take much longer than 5 years. Yes Hild, Orwell said the Brits were a nation of rotten teeth, we are now going back to the 50's where our dentistry is concerned.
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Post by hild1066 on Aug 22, 2024 11:58:27 GMT
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Post by rikiiboy on Aug 23, 2024 7:38:19 GMT
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Post by rikiiboy on Aug 23, 2024 7:46:44 GMT
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Post by marispiper on Aug 23, 2024 13:18:34 GMT
That's true - the poorest literacy has always been the Thames estuary 😐 but there's pockets everywhere and it's generational as well
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Post by marispiper on Aug 23, 2024 13:35:55 GMT
Hildie - I don't know how you type so much. You could get a Hansard job in the House 🤣 I was talking yesterday to a friend who's a Labour councillor...we agreed on the free speech and assimilation issues. He thinks all migrants should agree to adopt the UKs norms - a bit like swearing allegiance in the US. It's always surprising to find variance of views - even amongst died in the wool supporters (and he is!) I really don't know about your secularised Moslems - I don't see much evidence of that - in fact, in dress and observance, the opposite - but there's always plenty who say one thing and do another (like all faiths, eh?) Anyway, I was pleased Reeves made it clear she's got no blank cheque for union pay demands. Quite feisty. That's the thing - we've seen very little of any of 'em in action so it'll be good when PM Q's starts again. Also, immigration is down so hopefully that will continue with them. Funny, the one I am least keen in is Sir K himself. Not impressed - he comes across a bit toady 🤣 The Tories are still deciding who should lead them - Jenrick seems a front runner. Lord help us. Mind you, I sincerely believe they are dead in the water and I think right-leaning voters are going to go to Reform (listening to my right-leaning friends...and my brother 🤣)
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Post by Hilde on Aug 23, 2024 20:04:30 GMT
Farage has taken a hit in popularity since the riots. People might want immigration reform but on the whole they don't want to see people driven out by violence. They want it done properly via govt administration.
Then we have the issue of his earnings. Personally I don't know why it surprises people that he's wealthy. Only a wealthy man could trot around looking like Man at C&A and get away with it.
I think it is dawning on people that Reform is a limited company and not a political party. He just sacked another of the directors this week.
He has also discovered that being the leader of a small group, doesn't actually give him much coverage.
I think people need to look at other parties if they want a credible right leaning party. I think you mentioned the SDLP previously.
Starmer has tightened the visa system. He is boring but he is a good administrator and a stickler for the law.
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Post by rikiiboy on Aug 23, 2024 22:12:59 GMT
Warning!
If your pension is more than £250 per week you will loose your Winter fuel payments. Labour is punishing the elderly and the poor, kinnock said don't get old, sick or loose your job, should now be a reminder for Starmer?
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Post by rikiiboy on Aug 24, 2024 7:39:28 GMT
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Post by marispiper on Aug 24, 2024 8:18:34 GMT
Warning! If your pension is more than £250 per week you will loose your Winter fuel payments. Labour is punishing the elderly and the poor, kinnock said don't get old, sick or loose your job, should now be a reminder for Starmer? I see Rishi is calling for a rethink. 10% household fuel increases are unwelcome for all, but downright scary for some 😧
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Post by marispiper on Aug 24, 2024 8:22:40 GMT
Completely embarrassing, a figure that high. Not that there aren't SOME with genuine issues but I think people need to realise childhood and puberty, with all their completely natural turmoil, are NOT mental illnesses.
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Post by marispiper on Aug 24, 2024 8:24:01 GMT
Farage taking a hit in popularity? Not round here he isn't 🤣
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Post by ARENA on Aug 24, 2024 8:56:24 GMT
Farage taking a hit in popularity? Not round here he isn't 🤣 Why do you live in Clacton
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