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Post by jimmy2020 on Jul 17, 2020 9:48:01 GMT
One argument I saw was she had to come back as it was impossible for her to consult her lawyers from where she is. That is a bit suspect because where she is did not prevent her from having a long interview on TV. If she is now in a 'safe' camp then I would have thought that a secure satellite phone was an option, and a lot cheaper than the air fare from there to here.
And why have Bangladesh said they would execute her? As far as I am aware she did not commit any crimes either in Bangladesh or against their citizens. They have a zero tolerance to terrorism and anyone connected to it gets the chop |
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Post by aubrey on Jul 17, 2020 14:47:43 GMT
Exactly she would be held in custody during the case about her citizenship- and if she loses that she will be deported, perhaps to Bangladesh perhaps she will try Holland. Either way she would still face terrorism and criminal charges here and I think the minimum sentence is 10 years, so that first then deported. We would not deport her to Bangladesh if they were intent on execution. We can only claim to be a country that believes in the rule of law if we follow it, but that doesn't mean leniency. Even planning terrorism without putting any plans into action e.g not purchasing anything, not meeting anyone else gets you a prison sentence. Why should we pay for what will become the endless legal arguments and appeals for someone who chose to leave this country to go and join a terrorist organisation that was determined to destroy us
One reason is that it will affect what happens in the future.
My wife was born in Malaysia, so if she broke the law what would prevent her from being sent "home"?
I know that's ridiculous: but a few years ago the idea that British citizens would would be deported or made destitute if they couldn't provide documentation for every year they have lived here was ridiculous as well. The law breaking now is suspected terrorism; but that can easily be changed, especially after a propaganda campaign pushing a simple solution to the cost of incarceration.
It can't happen here. Everyone says that. It never can happen here, until it does.
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Post by althea on Jul 17, 2020 14:51:46 GMT
This young woman was young, idealistic and foolish. I think she has suffered a great deal for that mistake.
In many other countries, a return would definitely not be allowed. Surely, we are more humane than the likes of Bangladesh and Pakistan?
She will be mentally scarred for the rest of her life. I am no do-gooder, who thinks society is too soft on crime, but we all make mistakes when we are young and foolish.
We know she has paid a terrible price for her romantic notion of joining freedom fighters.
At first, I was of the opinion that anyone who turns against this country, when it has educated, fed and clothed them and provided them with medical treatment as required, should be banned from ever returning here.
Now I can't help feeling sorry for the children who went to Syria, thinking it was for a good cause, and found that it wasn't the adventure they imagined.
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Post by hild1066 on Jul 17, 2020 15:57:55 GMT
What is clear is that despite warnings when she was at school she was let down. She lived in a household where her parents spoke very little English. She had access to technology they did not understand or were able to use. Yet despite all that when her family were told that the school thought she might have been contacted by recruiters, they were able to understand this and agree to her being referred to the PREVENT programme. She was 14, it didn't happen and when she was 15 she ran away.
Some have said that she should not have been able to get her passport but frankly in her culture doing something her father had told her not to was outside of her parents understandings. They notified authorities as soon as she did not come home for dinner and they realised she had packed belongings and taken her passport.
So now we have a child on the run, but importantly we have 3 children on the run heading to an airport.
Now I don't know about you but 3 underage girls arrive at Gatwick for a flight to Turkey at a time when customs have been warned to watch out for people using this route. I mean realistically if 3 underage girls checked in for a flight to Berlin with no return tickets you'd hope that someone would question them even just to ensure they were safe. But at no point during the check in, security and boarding process is anyone concerned. Nobody is concerned on the flight or on arrival despite the fact they have no accommodation booked. They then travel to a coach station and board a bus to Syria. Nome of them speak the language, they are very young and not one person in all of these stages thinks something's up here.
Masses of failures to protect and safeguard 3 children that have clearly been groomed. Nome of their teachers describe them as clever or cunning, a few simple questions would at least have put a pause on their journey.
So yes, I can see how her parents feel let down, how they feel we didn't do enough to stop this. From what we understand the other two girls are dead and she is the only one to survive.
Imagine this was your child and 2 of her friends off on the run to somewhere dangerous or unsavoury.
Despite all the press reports about her activities nobody has found evidence (that we know of) that has her doing much more than being married, having a child who died, becoming a widow, remarrying, and having two more children that died. All before she was 19.
As we've said if there is evidence to charge her with more than being a member of ISIS then they'll charge her with that too.
We can't however take a person's citizenship away from them without hearing the case. She does have a right to consult with a legal team to gather facts for her defence and this can't be done in any secure or safe location in a camp in the dessert. How she'll get back is unknown. We have only allowed people back in so far, that have made their own way home.
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Post by jimmy2020 on Jul 17, 2020 17:01:29 GMT
Sorry Hild, you can make as many excuses as you like to lay the blame on teachers, border control, and parents to explain this womans actions
To me once a terrorist and always a terrorist. She knew exactly what she was doing and thought she was buying into a new state, it didn't work out so now she wants back. There is some evidence of her activity over there but it's in the Telegraph who want me to pay for the privilege of reading it
As far as I am concerned she made her bed and she can lie in it
If she does return would you be happy if she turns up living next door to you?
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Post by aubrey on Jul 17, 2020 17:32:35 GMT
Sorry Hild, you can make as many excuses as you like to lay the blame on teachers, border control, and parents to explain this womans actions To me once a terrorist and always a terrorist. She knew exactly what she was doing and thought she was buying into a new state, it didn't work out so now she wants back. There is some evidence of her activity over there but it's in the Telegraph who want me to pay for the privilege of reading it As far as I am concerned she made her bed and she can lie in it If she does return would you be happy if she turns up living next door to you?
She was a child, Jimmy. I doubt many people would want to have the rest of their lives decided on a mistake they made at 15, especially if they could have been stopped by people whose job it was to stop them. And you know what teenage girls are like: my half sister was always running away from home - come to that even my step sister ran away once, and she was the good one (she's a church-going teacher now, pillar of the community and all that; and I do like reminding her of the time she sneaked out of her bedroom window...).
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Post by jonjel2 on Jul 17, 2020 17:41:48 GMT
If ISIS had succeeded in creating a caliphate I think it is very unlikely that she would ever have considered coming 'home'. She is now making out she is a poor innocent child coerced into what she did. The reality is she was a street wise teenager who almost certainly knew exactly what she was doing, and it took a great deal of planning and guile. People seem to forget what she said in her TV interview, arguing it was totally OK to see severed heads in the bin, and now we see her with a Union flag decorated cushion in the background. I am sorry, I don't buy it and think she is not only dangerous but if she is allowed to return it will set a precedent for even more dangerous people to follow.
This somehow has echoes of the aftermath of the second world war. Suddenly an awful lot of people were 'never members of the Nazi party' and really just did as they were told. However had they won no doubt they would have worn their uniforms and decorations with arrogant pride. |
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Post by jimmy2020 on Jul 17, 2020 19:54:53 GMT
Aub, 15 year old girls are more streetwise and savvy than you or I could ever be
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Post by jimmy2020 on Jul 17, 2020 19:56:34 GMT
If ISIS had succeeded in creating a caliphate I think it is very unlikely that she would ever have considered coming 'home'. She is now making out she is a poor innocent child coerced into what she did. The reality is she was a street wise teenager who almost certainly knew exactly what she was doing, and it took a great deal of planning and guile. People seem to forget what she said in her TV interview, arguing it was totally OK to see severed heads in the bin, and now we see her with a Union flag decorated cushion in the background. I am sorry, I don't buy it and think she is not only dangerous but if she is allowed to return it will set a precedent for even more dangerous people to follow.
This somehow has echoes of the aftermath of the second world war. Suddenly an awful lot of people were 'never members of the Nazi party' and really just did as they were told. However had they won no doubt they would have worn their uniforms and decorations with arrogant pride. During her assorted TV interviews she was carrying something to resemble a baby but nobody ever saw that baby which led to questions as to t's authenticity |
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Post by hild1066 on Jul 17, 2020 20:00:30 GMT
Well we certainly didn't prosecute all the Nazi war criminals after the war. They had a couple of years of show trials then scrapped it. All the judges that had been judges when the Nazis were in power got their jobs back, most of the civil servants, teachers, factory owners.
We certainly didn't lock them up and throw away the key. Some of those doctors involved in evil experiments went straight back to being local doctors.
Did you know exactly what you were doing at 15, is there no scenario where someone led you along for a while or you got conned. Was there no time when you were reckless and endangered yourself. No time when you were even a bit rebellious or did something stupid to impress others. Has there been no time when your interpretation of the law was a little woolly and grey.
There isn't any such thing as a streetwise 15 year old which is why the law recognises them as children.
A rational person would be able to judge a situation and weigh the pros and cons and long term ramifications. That's not something 15 year olds are judged to be able to do under the law.
I wasn't blaming teachers individually. I was simply pointing out that there were opportunities to prevent her from running away and to prevent her from being groomed and chances to stop her before she reached Syria.
We all agree that it doesn't mean she is just let free, we all agree she should face the consequences of her actions. On that basis she may very likely face them here.
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Post by goodlookingone on Jul 17, 2020 20:01:29 GMT
Sorry Hild, you can make as many excuses as you like to lay the blame on teachers, border control, and parents to explain this womans actions To me once a terrorist and always a terrorist. She knew exactly what she was doing and thought she was buying into a new state, it didn't work out so now she wants back. There is some evidence of her activity over there but it's in the Telegraph who want me to pay for the privilege of reading it As far as I am concerned she made her bed and she can lie in it If she does return would you be happy if she turns up living next door to you? errr?? Why? I could make excuses, but I'd prefer not to until I'd known more about it. What Excuses... If these are "Excuses" then you must know much more than I do, so PLEASE tell us what you know, as I only here/read of what items the various News salesmen tell us. Bring her here. Let us hear what the Excuses are, and whatever actual Case is heard.
Yes, it will cost us a few bob - merely money - She is currently playing much more. Paying for a secure Legal cost is the penalty we play for being honest and need facts, not the Voice that Shouts Loudest.
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Post by jimmy2020 on Jul 18, 2020 7:57:14 GMT
"Did you know exactly what you were doing at 15, is there no scenario where someone led you along for a while or you got conned. Was there no time when you were reckless and endangered yourself. No time when you were even a bit rebellious or did something stupid to impress others. Has there been no time when your interpretation of the law was a little woolly and grey. There isn't any such thing as a streetwise 15 year old which is why the law recognises them as children." When we were 15 it was a totally different world, no social media - highlight of the week was the comic to read If you really believe there is "no such thing as a streetwise 15 year old" I invite you to visit the childrens secure assessment centre or any other one ands see for yourself. It will make your hair curl Bleeding hearts don't appear to have much success in promoting her cause news.sky.com/story/shamima-begum-78-of-britons-support-revoking-is-brides-uk-citizenship-sky-data-poll-11643068 |
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Post by aubrey on Jul 18, 2020 8:43:44 GMT
Aub, 15 year old girls are more streetwise and savvy than you or I could ever be
They think they are. And 15 year old - and older - boys think they are. They're just children though.
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Post by jonjel2 on Jul 18, 2020 9:37:34 GMT
When she left she was 15. When she was interviewed for TV she was 20, so we could say she had matured, and had time to reflect on what she had done. However during that interview she stated that she thought the Manchester arena bombing was fully justified. Who other than a hard line radical would ever think that bombing was justified.
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Post by jimmy2020 on Jul 18, 2020 9:43:14 GMT
When she left she was 15. When she was interviewed for TV she was 20, so we could say she had matured, and had time to reflect on what she had done. However during that interview she stated that she thought the Manchester arena bombing was fully justified. Who other than a hard line radical would ever think that bombing was justified. Typical ISIS, chop off heads, set fire to people still alive, murder children and innocent people And supporters want her brought back here - no way !!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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