spot
Silver Surfer
Posts: 110
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Post by spot on Nov 9, 2023 16:11:38 GMT
The longer it goes on, the more desperate is the plight of the Palestinians. I'd go a step further than that, althea. The more desperate is the plight of the Palestinians, as you say, but also the plight of the citizens of Israel, and you've identified the reason - "The longer it goes on". What has to be constructed is a viable solution, a solution both sides can live with. It doesn't exist at the moment. It will only exist when it's built. The way it gets built is by negotiation, and the trick to making it a viable solution is for all parties to design it knowing everyone has to be able to live with it afterwards. If it's an imposed solution by the "winner" of round 6 or 7 or 8 or however many times it's been fought out, then it's not going to be viable. The other party is going to try again and again to reset to year zero and have another try at agreeing a viable alternative. There are, after all, very few alternatives. It took the Protestant colonists backed by the British Army several hundred years to stop blighting the lives of Ireland's Roman Catholic majority, if you remember, and to be honest it's still not sorted, it's just in a limbo forced by an extremist armed sect who demand they're existentially loyal to their Union with Great Britain. Writing that sentence two days before Armistice Day is not the easiest thing to do but it needs saying sometimes. Some solutions we can dismiss as blatantly illegal and consequently not ever on the table. You must not invent a solution where all of the Palestinians are either dead or expelled from the region. You must not invent a mirror solution where all of the Jews are either dead or expelled from the region. Anyone at any level planning to implement such a plan will rightly fester in jail for the rest of their lives. Ethnic cleansing is not an option. So, with ethnic cleansing off the table, you only have a choice of two ways to reach a permanent settlement. One is to keep the region intact "from the river to the sea", to quote an often-misunderstood refrain - this is labelled "The One State Solution". Or you can divide the region up into two or more states, which we could label the only viable alternative "The Two State Solution" (or whatever number of countries your Balkanizing proposal would result in). The reason a multiple state solution will not ever work is the same reason that all Balkan solutions never work - one group of these new Balkanized states will gang up on the remaining less powerful Balkanized states and dictate their economic circumstances, their military circumstances, their foreign policy. To take a local example,you end up with the Scottish and Welsh governments perpetually in thrall to the English government based, for historical reasons, in the old capital of the United Kingdom in London and still calling itself the British parliament because they own the armed forces, they can do what they damn well want. Or Slovakia and Bosnia and Croatia and whatever city-states came out of the collapse of Yugoslavia or the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, if you prefer the origin of the metaphor. Or, if you want the ultimate big/little instance of the decade, Russia and Ukraine. Every other country that wants influence and control in the new territory sides with the weakling and boom, you have a proxy war on your hands. No Two-State answer or more states is viable, it festers and disintegrates and flares up a lot. And if that's the case, the only permanent answer is a One State answer where all the Palestinian and all the Jews and all the other factions in the region are citizens of the one state, and all have the same rights of citizenship. "The same rights of citizenship" is what invariably trips up every negotiation relating to the region despite it being the only possible legal long-term answer. I know a lot of people disagree with the suggestion but I've laid out every alternative and explained why none of them work. The real way to take this discussion forward is to point to any phrase or sentence in this post and explain why it is erroneous. Please, really, honestly, anyone, explain what is said here that is not true.
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Post by althea on Nov 10, 2023 14:54:43 GMT
I think you have covered all eventualities here, Spot. They will have to get round the table and negotiate at some point. Why not sooner rather than later, when the loss of life will be less severe? I honestly don't think Israel will ever be happy until it has all the land. This war proves once again that the United Nations is impotent.
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Post by brynmawr on Nov 10, 2023 22:14:02 GMT
The longer it goes on, the more desperate is the plight of the Palestinians. Our politics always depends on who will get most benefit from by supporting them. It's not altruism of any sort. The whole thing makes me feel angry and ill every time I think of it. It seems there is no humanity left in the world. I know that's a sweeping generalisation, but I feel as though it's true. It is understandable that the reaction of the UK and the US in the immediate aftermath of Hamas's atrocities on 07/10 was to come out in support of Israel but, given Israel's history of disproportionate retaliation for Hamas's actions, always against Palestinian civilians, and Israel's immediate and bloody revenge attacks in this instance, for them to continue to say "we give Israel our unconditional support, carry on and here are the weapons you'll need to do so" is inexcusable. All I can say is "NOT IN MY NAME"!
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Post by brynmawr on Nov 10, 2023 22:20:08 GMT
I think you have covered all eventualities here, Spot. They will have to get round the table and negotiate at some point. Why not sooner rather than later, when the loss of life will be less severe? I honestly don't think Israel will ever be happy until it has all the land. This war proves once again that the United Nations is impotent. Whilst a few individual nations have the power of veto over any resolution the council at large wish to pass then the UN will remain impotent - it needs a total rebuild and that should include a set of international laws binding on all countries.
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Post by ARENA on Nov 16, 2023 10:26:57 GMT
Nice to see you back Bryn (is that Welsh)?
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Post by brynmawr on Nov 16, 2023 22:33:12 GMT
Nice to see you back Bryn (is that Welsh)? Indeed, it means "Hill".
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Post by hild1066 on Feb 12, 2024 12:35:20 GMT
This is getting worse. The Israelis now say they will bomb Rafah. The city they told everyone to move to. Indeed last night they did so and rescued two Israeli hostages from an apartment block, with soldiers on the ground, helicopters and bombing to keep people inside. At least 67 people were killed. They got the hostages but at what cost.
Where are these people going to be told to move to now. Some have moved 3 times already.
Egypt will not let them in and I can't say I disagree with that, because most Palestinian's do not have passports and the Israelis won't let them back in even if they try. That will leave Egypt with over a million refugees who can't return to their homeland or have any documents that prove it was their homeland. I think everyone can see that the Israelis are trying a scorched earth policy because even if the war ends tomorrow there are very little viable places in the north of Palestine for people to move back to.
I don't think we can keep sitting on our hands and not try to stop Israel from this.
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Post by marispiper on Feb 15, 2024 8:56:20 GMT
It is absolutely desperate the way support for Palestinians is giving alarming rise to antisemitism towards ordinary Jews here. Israel is a state. Judaism is a religion. Starmer has a job in his hands if he thinks he will root this out in his party; heated support for Palestine and by dint, antisemitism, seems to be a characteristic of the left. It really concerns me.
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Post by hild1066 on Feb 15, 2024 9:51:01 GMT
I do think we need to clearly define comments about the Israeli govt and military alone and not about Jews in particular. I think most people can differentiate and do not think both amount to anti-Semitism. However, politicians really need to steer clear and not make stupid alarming comments. Starmer is working hard he has suspended everyone they find who makes comments. This happens immediately and it gets done. Local parties need to be much more aware of what social media actually is and get their acts together. By that I mean all local parties because I am sure there are alarming comments in many local party meetings across the country for all parties.
How far can the govt go in supporting Israel is another worry. There are 1.4 million people in Rafah, which is the equivalent of 1.4 million people in Heathrow Airport. How do you safely attack a city crammed with refugees I don't know.
The rise in general antisemitism here is worrying, I do think a lot of it was simmering under the surface anyway and people have been shocked to realise how many British Jews have done National Service in the Israeli Armed Forces and the fact that the govt keeps no record of this. Neither does it keep a record of the number of British Jews working for private militias and as mercenaries in Israel. I think the govt would react differently if thousands of dual National citizens were doing national service in Syria or Russia and that according to my Bangladeshi taxi driver the other day is boiling the blood of so many Muslims in the UK. He said if he went back to Bangladesh and joined the army for two years he probably wouldn't be let back into the UK and yet there is no form to complete, no notification to be sent, no permission given, no records at all. Just estimates.
We must also note that many British Jews do support a state of Palestine and don't support the ever encroaching kibbutz system. They even marched to support this the other week. They were not accused of anti-Semitism at all, but when someone Arab looking says as much well.................! I support a state of Palestine, it would be complex, but the only way to actually get real democracy in Palestine. Currently people in Palestine live under an Israeli dictatorship and that will always create terrorism.
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Post by ARENA on Feb 15, 2024 10:08:38 GMT
I do think we need to clearly define comments about the Israeli govt and military alone and not about Jews in particular. I think most people can differentiate and do not think both amount to anti-Semitism. However, politicians really need to steer clear and not make stupid alarming comments. Starmer is working hard he has suspended everyone they find who makes comments. This happens immediately and it gets done. Local parties need to be much more aware of what social media actually is and get their acts together. By that I mean all local parties because I am sure there are alarming comments in many local party meetings across the country for all parties. How far can the govt go in supporting Israel is another worry. There are 1.4 million people in Rafah, which is the equivalent of 1.4 million people in Heathrow Airport. How do you safely attack a city crammed with refugees I don't know. The rise in general antisemitism here is worrying, I do think a lot of it was simmering under the surface anyway and people have been shocked to realise how many British Jews have done National Service in the Israeli Armed Forces and the fact that the govt keeps no record of this. Neither does it keep a record of the number of British Jews working for private militias and as mercenaries in Israel. I think the govt would react differently if thousands of dual National citizens were doing national service in Syria or Russia and that according to my Bangladeshi taxi driver the other day is boiling the blood of so many Muslims in the UK. He said if he went back to Bangladesh and joined the army for two years he probably wouldn't be let back into the UK and yet there is no form to complete, no notification to be sent, no permission given, no records at all. Just estimates. We must also note that many British Jews do support a state of Palestine and don't support the ever encroaching kibbutz system. They even marched to support this the other week. They were not accused of anti-Semitism at all, but when someone Arab looking says as much well.................! I support a state of Palestine, it would be complex, but the only way to actually get real democracy in Palestine. Currently people in Palestine live under an Israeli dictatorship and that will always create terrorism. Only one person is responsible for the current state of affairs and that is the butcher of Gaza. Lots of Israelis are opposed to his culling of Palestinians.
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Post by marispiper on Feb 15, 2024 19:20:10 GMT
Well, if no records are kept then how would anyone know about other nations - and we've only become aware of British citizens fighting for Israel because they're involved in a direct conflict... Anyway, it's a side issue. Israel is demanding all its hostages to end the fighting but Hamas would have no bargaining power then. Not gonna happen. Also while Netanyahu is in power I cannot see him stopping for any reason and he just won't listen to a two state solution. Others might... but they ain't in the driving seat. They both want to wipe the other from the face of the earth so I don't even see diplomacy working with these. And one's a terrorist group.
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Post by skylark on Feb 16, 2024 7:19:43 GMT
It is absolutely desperate the way support for Palestinians is giving alarming rise to antisemitism towards ordinary Jews here. Israel is a state. Judaism is a religion. Starmer has a job in his hands if he thinks he will root this out in his party; heated support for Palestine and by dint, antisemitism, seems to be a characteristic of the left. It really concerns me. Judaism is a religion but Jewishness (is that a word?) is a race. I knew a totally secular Jew from Brighton who hosted a Jewish website and was obviously a great supporter of Israel, , though he died before the current crisis. On holiday a couple of years ago I met two religious though not deeply Orthodox Jews from London who were deeply disturbed by the right wing government of Israel. In their opinion the most committed Zionists are secular Jews. Israel has broken UN resolution after UN resolution and nothing happens. Part of the problem is that both the USA and UK are permanent members of the UN Security Council so have the power of veto, and this is because, like Russia, they have nuclear weapons.
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Post by hild1066 on Feb 16, 2024 10:23:32 GMT
Just to note that alleged antisemitism is not exclusively a Labour thing. The Tory Mayor of Salisbury has just been expelled for his comments.
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Post by hild1066 on Mar 18, 2024 12:36:33 GMT
EU prepares sanctions on Hamas and West Bank settlers EU foreign policy chief Joseph Borrell says he is confident the bloc will agree sanctions on both Hamas and violent Israeli West Bank settlers today. The EU has so far struggled to agree sanctions against those responsible for attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank, with the US and UK having already imposed similar measures. Agreement is now expected after Hungary, a close ally of the Israeli government, reportedly signalled its support, having previously been blamed for holding up sanctions on settlers in the West Bank. Further sanctions against Hamas are also expected. Speaking to reporters in Brussels, Borrell says: "It seems that today all will agree on putting sanctions on both Hamas and the violent settlers who are harassing Palestinians in the West Bank." Germany's foreign minister says that the only resolution to the Gaza-Israel conflict would be a Palestinian state. "This war and this conflict overall can only come to an end if there is a two-state solution," Annalena Baerbock tells reporters outside an EU meeting in Brussels. "That’s why it’s decisive for us to make clear that settlements building and the violence of radical settlers does not correspond with international law and here too, we will pave the way for sanctions.” Meanwhile, away from the situation at al-Shifa hospital, the EU's foreign policy chief Josep Borrell has been speaking about the need for humanitarian aid in Gaza. Borrell says Israel is provoking famine in Gaza and using starvation as a weapon of war. "In Gaza we are no longer on the brink of famine, we are in a state of famine, affecting thousands of people," Borrell tells a conference in Brussels. "This is unacceptable. Starvation is used as a weapon of war. Israel is provoking famine."
I am not commenting personally on these reports from today. I just thought that our news channels may be less likely to report that the EU is considering sanctions.
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Post by hild1066 on Mar 25, 2024 12:28:17 GMT
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