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Post by hild1066 on Oct 11, 2017 11:22:19 GMT
Similarly I know of a vicar who had some complaints raised against him by children. Not all at the same time but at different stages over a couple of years. A friend who was Church Warden spoke to him and told him that although the parents did not want to go to the police, he felt the vicar should no longer be around children unsupervised. The vicar was outgraged, fuming. These children were nasty and all making it up and if their parents didn't want to go to the police then why should anything change in his life. The vicar was married with 3 children. Nevertheless my friend insisted that there would be no more church camps that the vicar needed to attend and he should not be unsupervised with children. It festered, the vicar often disregarded this advice and after a year or so he moved parish, from the North to the South of England. Last year he was up in court accused and found guilty of multiple cases of child abuse. Now at the time he was here, the allegations were about him watching children undress, peeping into the tent and tucking children in, hugging the children a little too tightly etc. there was absolutely nothing that the police at that time (1970s) would have done about this behaviour and very few parents who would have wanted to go to the police and there was the protection he had. At that point all of his behaviour could have been "misinterpreted". At the court case however we found out that two of the boys that had initially complained were now adding sexual assault to their allegations. So, did nobody speak to them at the time, did nobody question them thoroughly. They claimed they had told their parents that the vicar touched them and as one boy said "As soon as I said that, my parents just told me to shut up and stop saying such nasty things. I never spoke to them again about it". So there's the dilemma. The police at the time would have done nothing, the parents didn't want to get into it and the child was left assaulted and un-believed. He said it was his wife who told him to report it so many years later after he had broken down whilst watching a film with a similar character in it. His testimony alongside others sent the vicar away for a number of years. There are still ex parishioners who don't want to believe it, who don't want to even think about it and my friend who was Church Warden at the time went to the police and told them everything he knew but there never was an inquiry at the time and nobody questioned the two young boys that were involved. My friend has felt so guilty about this but he knows that he did what he could at the time faced with a set of circumstances where the parents wouldn't talk and wouldn't let the boys talk and the vicar denied everything.
That you know of one case where the girl was lying is fair enough and the outcome of that was traumatic but most of the cases reported to the police are true and not about famous people and the fact that there is a phone line they can use nowadays is neither here nor there, these people were adults before the reported the case and most of the people doing so are adults too.
All the police have done in the Heath case is say that they would have brought him in for questioning if he were still alive based on the evidence they have to date. It has taken years, generations for the police to start taking these allegations seriously, to start looking and listening to children and young adults, even adults who allege rape. It has taken years for the courts to take it seriously and they don't always do a very good job of it. Are you suggesting that none of that advancement is worth it, because sometimes people lie and that the police should assume they are before they even go into the interview room.
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Post by aubrey on Oct 11, 2017 16:34:08 GMT
At our school in the 70s there was one teacher was dangerous around girls; one girl told me that the 5th form girls (he was creepy but not an absolute pervert) knew not to let themselves get alone with him: he'd chase them around, trying to cop a feel, or more - very Benny Hill, it seemed. All the girls knew: it was just something they had to watch out for: and it was more or less expected. The idea of reporting him never seemed to occur to anyone: certainly not the girl who told me, and not me either.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 17:34:05 GMT
Harvey Weinstein who has not been convicted of anything is now found guilty in the court of public opinion. Another one but at least he is not dead and can defend himself Do we really believe that the fragrant Angelina who is one of the most powerful women in the USA and probably the wotrld would keep quiet if he had assaulted her Pity Joan Rivers is no longer with us, the Jewish mafia would have swung into action
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 17:48:23 GMT
Similarly I know of a vicar who had some complaints raised against him by children. Not all at the same time but at different stages over a couple of years. A friend who was Church Warden spoke to him and told him that although the parents did not want to go to the police, he felt the vicar should no longer be around children unsupervised. The vicar was outgraged, fuming. These children were nasty and all making it up and if their parents didn't want to go to the police then why should anything change in his life. The vicar was married with 3 children. Nevertheless my friend insisted that there would be no more church camps that the vicar needed to attend and he should not be unsupervised with children. It festered, the vicar often disregarded this advice and after a year or so he moved parish, from the North to the South of England. Last year he was up in court accused and found guilty of multiple cases of child abuse. Now at the time he was here, the allegations were about him watching children undress, peeping into the tent and tucking children in, hugging the children a little too tightly etc. there was absolutely nothing that the police at that time (1970s) would have done about this behaviour and very few parents who would have wanted to go to the police and there was the protection he had. At that point all of his behaviour could have been "misinterpreted". At the court case however we found out that two of the boys that had initially complained were now adding sexual assault to their allegations. So, did nobody speak to them at the time, did nobody question them thoroughly. They claimed they had told their parents that the vicar touched them and as one boy said "As soon as I said that, my parents just told me to shut up and stop saying such nasty things. I never spoke to them again about it". So there's the dilemma. The police at the time would have done nothing, the parents didn't want to get into it and the child was left assaulted and un-believed. He said it was his wife who told him to report it so many years later after he had broken down whilst watching a film with a similar character in it. His testimony alongside others sent the vicar away for a number of years. There are still ex parishioners who don't want to believe it, who don't want to even think about it and my friend who was Church Warden at the time went to the police and told them everything he knew but there never was an inquiry at the time and nobody questioned the two young boys that were involved. My friend has felt so guilty about this but he knows that he did what he could at the time faced with a set of circumstances where the parents wouldn't talk and wouldn't let the boys talk and the vicar denied everything. That you know of one case where the girl was lying is fair enough and the outcome of that was traumatic but most of the cases reported to the police are true and not about famous people and the fact that there is a phone line they can use nowadays is neither here nor there, these people were adults before the reported the case and most of the people doing so are adults too. All the police have done in the Heath case is say that they would have brought him in for questioning if he were still alive based on the evidence they have to date. It has taken years, generations for the police to start taking these allegations seriously, to start looking and listening to children and young adults, even adults who allege rape. It has taken years for the courts to take it seriously and they don't always do a very good job of it. Are you suggesting that none of that advancement is worth it, because sometimes people lie and that the police should assume they are before they even go into the interview room. You quote a case where the individual was eventually convicted, and I'm glad he was. I can quote cases where the allegations were false. In the present system there are bound to be errors and differences and this is why I want the system tightened up specifically to avoid the innocent being falsely named and in effect ruined
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Post by aubrey on Oct 11, 2017 18:55:31 GMT
Harvey Weinstein who has not been convicted of anything is now found guilty in the court of public opinion. Another one but at least he is not dead and can defend himself Do we really believe that the fragrant Angelina who is one of the most powerful women in the USA and probably the wotrld would keep quiet if he had assaulted her Pity Joan Rivers is no longer with us, the Jewish mafia would have swung into action "Jewish Mafia"? Come on, you can't talk like that.
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Post by ARENA on Oct 12, 2017 6:17:49 GMT
Harvey Weinstein who has not been convicted of anything is now found guilty in the court of public opinion. Another one but at least he is not dead and can defend himself Do we really believe that the fragrant Angelina who is one of the most powerful women in the USA and probably the wotrld would keep quiet if he had assaulted her Pity Joan Rivers is no longer with us, the Jewish mafia would have swung into action "Jewish Mafia"? Come on, you can't talk like that. Let's tone it down Bryan.
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Post by anybody on Oct 12, 2017 7:39:06 GMT
Hear,hear.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 8:05:52 GMT
Harvey Weinstein who has not been convicted of anything is now found guilty in the court of public opinion. Another one but at least he is not dead and can defend himself Do we really believe that the fragrant Angelina who is one of the most powerful women in the USA and probably the wotrld would keep quiet if he had assaulted her Pity Joan Rivers is no longer with us, the Jewish mafia would have swung into action "Jewish Mafia"? Come on, you can't talk like that. Are you denying that the Jewish lobby in the USA does not have a profound influence? Why do you think that Israel gets away with what they do?
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Post by aubrey on Oct 12, 2017 8:46:52 GMT
Mafia?
Obviously there are Jewish organisations, as there are and have been organisations of every ethnic grouping (like the Hollywood Cricket Club, a club mostly consisting of English people working in film). I don't think it has a profound influence - I think Israel is more strategic than anything, and Jewishness doesn't really come into it - and there is still a hell of a lot of anti-Semitism in the US and in Hollywood, like Gibson's Christ film and Gibson's drunken outbursts - how does an anti-Semite like his still get work if there's a mafia preventing him?
And how is it that Jews are even mentioned here?
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Post by hild1066 on Oct 12, 2017 10:42:43 GMT
At our school in the 70s there was one teacher was dangerous around girls; one girl told me that the 5th form girls (he was creepy but not an absolute pervert) knew not to let themselves get alone with him: he'd chase them around, trying to cop a feel, or more - very Benny Hill, it seemed. All the girls knew: it was just something they had to watch out for: and it was more or less expected. The idea of reporting him never seemed to occur to anyone: certainly not the girl who told me, and not me either. That's part of the problem. I remember when I first started working and the woman who took me around pointedly indicated the 'gropers' offices as if it was part of the floorplan. I was given warning about not being alone in the photocopying room, not agreeing to work late with certain people etc. I cannot imagine giving a young person starting work similar advice nowadays. At least if it involves a teacher, records can show whether that teacher went on that school trip and whether he did the night shift etc. It beggars belief that Head's tolerated this stuff but the simply did and children and young people were just supposed to put up with it.
My mum was a Probation Officer for a while when we were young and she says that nothing we hear now is new it's just that people didn't want to have their name reported, their family name, they didn't want their children to be tarnished by having been assaulted. She says that cases of incest were terrible to deal with because quite often the entire family wanted nothing done and the police in those days were reluctant to press charges with witnesses that had to be forced into court. She tells me that she believes all these things about these famous people because she would be the one dealing with the young person who had some time later been found drunk and disorderly o(or other misdemeanour charge) and who spilled their story to her and she just firmly believes that if a teacher in a primary school could act as flagrantly as the teacher you describe about and get away with it (1960s) when half the other teachers have a bit of an idea what is going on then why wouldn't someone with even more power and ability to bury the facts get away with it too.
She is adamant there is no increase in this type of behaviour just that we are more able to report and be taken seriously.
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Post by hild1066 on Oct 12, 2017 10:47:01 GMT
Harvey Weinstein who has not been convicted of anything is now found guilty in the court of public opinion. Another one but at least he is not dead and can defend himself Do we really believe that the fragrant Angelina who is one of the most powerful women in the USA and probably the wotrld would keep quiet if he had assaulted her Pity Joan Rivers is no longer with us, the Jewish mafia would have swung into action Trot on Bryan and at the very least read something about young victims of sexual assault and how it affects their behaviour. There's a good piece in the NYT today, you might learn something!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 11:16:39 GMT
Harvey Weinstein who has not been convicted of anything is now found guilty in the court of public opinion. Another one but at least he is not dead and can defend himself Do we really believe that the fragrant Angelina who is one of the most powerful women in the USA and probably the wotrld would keep quiet if he had assaulted her Pity Joan Rivers is no longer with us, the Jewish mafia would have swung into action Trot on Bryan and at the very least read something about young victims of sexual assault and how it affects their behaviour. There's a good piece in the NYT today, you might learn something! I'm not arguing with you about the effect of actual assault on young people, or adults. What I am arguing about is the ease that false accusations can be made, and the surrounding publicity that then ruins the so called accused's life
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 11:30:06 GMT
Mafia? Obviously there are Jewish organisations, as there are and have been organisations of every ethnic grouping (like the Hollywood Cricket Club, a club mostly consisting of English people working in film). I don't think it has a profound influence - I think Israel is more strategic than anything, and Jewishness doesn't really come into it - and there is still a hell of a lot of anti-Semitism in the US and in Hollywood, like Gibson's Christ film and Gibson's drunken outbursts - how does an anti-Semite like his still get work if there's a mafia preventing him? And how is it that Jews are even mentioned here? "One person who has spoken candidly about this is Bishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa, who was awarded the 1984 Nobel Peace Prize. Addressing an audience in Boston, he said: “But you know as well as I do that, somehow, the Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticize it is to be immediately dubbed anti-Semitic ... People are scared in this country, to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful -- very powerful.” " www.ihr.org/leaflets/jewishlobby.shtml
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Post by aubrey on Oct 12, 2017 11:41:49 GMT
He didn't say anything about a mafia.
But this story has nothing to do with Jewishness,
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Post by hild1066 on Oct 12, 2017 12:05:02 GMT
No this story is about sexual predators and abusers, people who take advantage of the power they have over more vulnerable people and psychological affect that this can have leading to them saying nothing to anyone for many years over the guilt and anger that they feel. These people can be of any faith, culture or nationality and the story is also about the people around the predator who cover up, smudge, lie and threaten people who may take away their livelihood or standing. We are now clear that people knew about Savile, just as they knew about many others from the office groper to the serial rapist, we need to learn much more about why these people support this behaviour and fail to report it and why when it is reported those in authority react so slowly or not at all. This behaviour ruins peoples lives and the main concern many people have is that occasionally (not often) an accused person is found to have been the victim of a lie. It has been understood for many years that publically naming the accused allows others who may also have been victims to have the confidence to come forward, often these 'new' victims have corroborating evidence that further confirms the guilt of the accused. It also allows witnesses that know this could not have occurred to come forward and support the accused. If all of this was done in secret we could end up with more innocent people found guilty. It is often the case that once a case is made public, usually at the first hearing before a judge, a new witness comes forward, someone unconnected who can confirm that the accused was not at the scene of the crime or would have been unable to commit the offence. It is sometimes very hard otherwise for defence lawyers to find evidence that supports their client's whereabouts, especially if the accused says they were at home all evening. It takes someone coming forward to say that they came out of their house or parked to go to the takeaway or something and notice the accused car was there at 9pm etc. if that evidence is credible and relative then it can be very useful to the defence. If everything is secret then the neighbour might not know that the information they have is even useful.
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